Europe is Burning
Posted by Moonage on 08 Nov 2005 | Tagged as: International Issues
I have been following the situation in France as have many other people. But, I don’t really have an opinion on it. Well, I do, but it’s not totally based on facts, so I’d rather become more informed. I know what I’m reading, but this is a very complicated issue that a blurb won’t cover. As with all infitadas(sp?), they want to be noticed. That’s what is fueling this IMO. I don’t really want to contribute to that.
France, along with Europe, has struggled with immigrant Muslim issues for some time, and don’t seem to be resolving it very well. The reason, and I hate to agree with Chirac, is because they have singled out Muslims and until recently, allowed them to more or less isolate themselves within the various contries they reside with their own rules. IMO, this was a mistake. Now, they are singling them out and attacking a lot of the core ethical practices (rules) of the Muslims. You can’t have it both ways. You’re confusing the people subjected to those conflicting expectations and when people are confused, they react unpredictably.
You’re not seeing these riots in the US because IMO, we are much more successful in accepting different cultures into our own than Europe has been. We expect any culture to live by the same laws a lifelong US citizen has. Even with the strains of post-911, we allow anyone to become citizens as any other person would be. Until Europe either closes its borders or gives them the same opportunities as the rest of their countries, there will be constant struggles and resentment. I don’t think either approach is necessarily wrong, but the European countries need to make a decision and go with it.
And then check out what the rest of the blogoshpere has to say.
9 Comments »
on 08 Nov 2005 at 1:46 pm 1.Francis said …
I tend to agree with you, this is not a problem that will occur in the US because US immigramts aren’t ghettoized to the same extent.
And if you want more comment then there is my blog which is being written a few miles from some of the more minor riots and which has LOTS
DD
on 08 Nov 2005 at 8:02 pm 2.Bryan Kerwick
said …
Anthony:
I have been keeping an eye on the situation in France which now seems to be spreading to Germany and Belgium and wonder out loud what went so terribly wrong there.
Some hints to this problem came from Chirac who stated that France has not done a good enough job assimilating these people into French society. Others beleive it is old Europe’s racist policies toward foreigners. Still others blame the jobless situation in the ghettos as the route cause.
I am ignorant as to why this is happening as I do not have enough information to make an intellegent conclusion to the facts of the problem at hand but there are some lessons here for America.
First and foremost, ALL Americans regardless of heratige MUST be required to speak English and have some basic understanding of our heritage as well as our Constitution.
Secondly, we absolutely have to stop building low income housing that ultimately turn into ghetto slums. These highrise horrors are problems waiting to explode. Habitat for humanity has the right idea of building single family dwellings that are Owned by the occupants and has their sweat equity in these houses. Pride of ownership is critical especially when you actually were engaged in the construction.
Thirdly, the school system must be wrestled away from the far left school boards and replaced by soccer moms who actually have a vested interest in the children absent of political agendas.
These remedies will be useless unless we get some sanity back to controlling our borders but I think they are a good start in preventing the problems Europe is facing.
Lastly, somewhere deep inside my sinister side, I am smiling that this is happening to those bastards that worked so hard to prevent the US from having unanimous consent at the UN for taking the fight to the Muslim terrorists where they live so we do not have to fight them here at home. It almost seems like poetic justice. I really shouldn’t gloat but I just can’t help myself.
on 08 Nov 2005 at 11:04 pm 3.--H
said …
Well, as a person who first got to this country as an immigrant, I’d like to chime in. First and foremost, the fundamental difference is that countries like the US/Canada/Australia are unique by themselves. Without going into too much historical details, these countries were built by “immigrants”. Those who come to these countries and don’t mind to blend in (like me), can proudly call themselves “Americans” or “Canadians” or “Australians”.
That is not the case almost everywhere else in the world — especially in France or Germany. One can live there for hundreds of years as immigrants and will never be able to regard themselves as “French” or “Germans”. This may involve some elements of generalization but it is what it is.
In France, for example, the “discrimination” does not exclusively pointed toward Muslims or people from their former African colonies. Friends of my wife’s from Eastern Europe — who are educated and white — are not exempt from this kind of treatment. Ditto in Germany. A friend of ours told a story about how certain government jobs are being “allocated” to French and to immigrants. The French do not want to take the positions because “it is too hard a job having to work 6 hours/day”, which is not a slight problem for the immigrants. But the French started to complain when they saw how immigrants “snapped” their jobs. It’s an irony for a country whose motto is “liberte, egalite, fraternite”.
With that said, there are probably some faults on the immigrants’ side as well. One guy from Africa wrote on the BBC board “if they think life in France is tough for them, they should go back to where they are from”. It’s simple yet powerful. Complaining and criticizing is the easiest thing to do but what have you done about the situation you’re in?
on 09 Nov 2005 at 2:58 am 4.Bryan Kerwick
said …
Just a thought as to how to quell the violence in France and other European countries that may be radical but necessary.
The living conditions for these ghettos is deplorable and will not change unless the French government does in fact disperse the ghettos entirely. It is widely known these living conditions are deplorable and the buildings themselves are completely out of compliance. They should be razed immediately with the population dispersed to other areas away from the ghettos.
Someone must realize building highrise ghettos that are woefully out of building codes is a recipe for disaster. Eliminating these structures and dispersing the population will help in the assimilation process.
All French citizens must be required to speak French and the French government should allow enterprise zones that greatly reduce taxation to stimulate investment.
School vouchers would allow private schools that will put students in a position to excel and not flounder due to a language barrier with an emphasis on learning the French language.
Enterprise zones will in fact provide investment in small and medium industry and the service sector which in turn will provide much needed jobs for those who wish to escape poverty.
Socialism and communism are flawed simply because there is no incentive to excel. Poor unproductive workers are paid the same as those who excel which eliminates the capitolistic promise of increased income based on individuals who excel. There is no reason to work long and hard to get ahead because they get paid the same if they work hard or are loafers. This practice eliminates the reason to be hard working industrios go-getters as there is no reward for their efforts.
Small and medium industries which are the backbone of any economy can not survive or excel in the current political atmosphere. 6 hour workdays may seem like a good deal for the workers but the bottom line is that if they work hard and become more productive they get paid at a higher rate which gets people out of poverty and into the middle class.
Housing improvements need to be based on an ownership society. Razing the ghettos and replacing them with single family dwellings give people pride in home ownership and a real shot of assimilating into the middle class. These changes of eliminating ghettos in favor of true neighborhoods that are owned by the occupants will mosy certainly eliminate the desire to destroy what is theirs and provide desperately needed jobs to those ffected. There is no excuse for 40% unemployment when those disenfranchised people have a hand in creating their own neighborhoods, business and schools. The civil service jobs should be given to those who live in these areas and not to outsiders that are from areas they have no vested interest in the neighborhoods or the people who occupy them. Police, firemen, teachers and social workers need to live where they work to ensure further stability.
Basically what is required is a real opportunity at being all one can be but the current system does not allow this. This situation goes for all of old Europe and not just France. Unless someone wakes up and addresses these problems in an aggressive manner Europe will continue to burn and there is a very real possibilituy of a return to the crusades.
Equal opportunity is institutionally denied and will only get worse if Europe does not adopt the American model of assimilation. The massive muslim community in places like Detroit is a perfect example of how to do things the right way. These communities are excelling quite nicely because the American ideal of equal opportunity for all works and Europe needs to wake up and realize just how backward they are and the consequences they must pay for failure to implement what has proven to be a much better plan of action.
I sincerely doubt they will ever change their ways and can expect the violence to continue spreading to the point where immigration is curtailed severely just as Switzerland has instituted laws to do so. Old Europe is a racist conglomeration that will sink into total chaos and they deserve everything they get.
on 09 Nov 2005 at 8:53 am 5.Moonage
said …
Excellent post Hedonistix! Things look a lot different from a viewer perspective than it does from someone who’s been there, done that. And, you did a much better job explaining what I was trying to say as well. Drop by more often, I need all the help I can get.
on 10 Nov 2005 at 1:45 am 6.--H
said …
Thanks, Moon! I hope I can drop by more often but my own blog has been abandoned for weeks now.
To respond to Bryan, requiring everybody to speak French does not necessarily make them more “patriotic”. For example, I don’t see any serious problem would be caused by our Hispanic fellow citizens who speak English probably only 5% in their day to day lives. Ditto the Chinese or Indian or Arab immigrants here. They may not speak English but I doubt if they are planning to start riots here anytime soon.
I guess the main difference here is “the absence of hopelessness”. Not saying that things are easy in this country but I personally know many janitors or other blue collar workers whose kids graduated from top universities like UCLA or UC Berkeley. One just need to pay their dues, that’s all. I’ve also read a local SF article about a single African American mother living in a ghetto area of SF but is pounding the importance of education to her son, her son happens to like to study and has a consistent 4.0 GPA. That’s what people can achieve if they don’t moan and put efforts. Some here do belong to very exclusive class of society in which not many can join — but it’s rare.
This “opportunity” is the thing that France — I’m not singling out France but since this subject is on France, let me just use them as a proxy for simplification — as a country and society, should learn from us.
on 10 Nov 2005 at 1:47 pm 7.StormWarning
said …
And to add to this, I provide a link to quite a good article on the subject (it will eventually be included in something I’ll write on my page), but it also belongs in this thread.
FRANCE’S LOST TERRITORIES
Will today’s thugs become tomorrow’s jihadi?
http://nypress.com/18/45/news&columns/olivierguitta.cfm
…Some commentators have been quick to accuse Islamists of organizing the riots. This is not accurate. While it is true that in some isolated cases, some rioters were heard yelling Allah Ahukbar while torching cars and throwing Molotov cocktails at the anti-riot police, this has not been the general pattern. When asked about it on November 7, Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin answered that the Islamists were not the essential force between the riots. A much better source, the Renseignements Généraux—a unit of the police, which closely monitors the Islamists, the mosques and the exurban slums called banlieues, which are populated mostly by poor Africans and Muslims—have found no Islamist hand in the latest violence…[more]
Olivier Guitta is an expert in counterterrorism.
Olivier Guitta was born in Morocco, earned degrees in economics and finance in Germany and France, and now lives near Washington, D.C. Mr. Guitta has over a decade of experience in international banking and portfolio management with two major firms, and possesses broad expertise in Israel, the Arab world and European actions against terrorism. He is a consultant on the Middle East, Europe and terror financing. His articles have been published in numerous outlets, including the “Weekly Standard,” “Middle East Quarterly,” “Jerusalem Post,” “FrontPage Magazine” (on the French counter-terrorism model), and “Tech Central Station.”
on 11 Nov 2005 at 6:30 am 8.Bryan Kerwick
said …
Hedonistix:
The primary reason I indicated that all occupants of France must learn the French language is quite simple.
It is virtually impossible to secure employment in any French business without being able to communicate with employers, customers and the general public at large. This is absolute cause of the 40% unemployment which has caused the vast majority of frustration, dissention and violence among the immigrants.Had these people been required to speak French, they would find themselves employable in France. To further exasperate the problem, the only education available to these non-french speaking people is in schools run by the Muslim community which absolutely does not prepare them for future employment in their newly adopted country. Most intellegent people realize these folks primarily speak their native language at home and in their segregated neighborhoods using your 95% figure but that does nothing to help people secure jobs or assimilate into their newly adopted country. The inability to secure gainful employment relegates these people to a lifetime of living in slums and eliminates the opportunity to move up to middle class neighborhoods and realize the dream of a better life. They are permanently trapped into a life of misery due to the fact they have no way out.
In stark contrast to the US, our Mexican bretheren do have the capacity to communicate with the public at large and in doing so are able to secure employment and realize the American dream. What they speak at home has no bearing on their employment situation which is the absolute route cause of the frustration these young men and women feel and then act out in a violent manner.
Jobs, home ownership and self determination are impossible if you do not have the ability to articulate your thoughts.
This has nothing to do with patriotism as you have suggested but survival in a better world. I stand firmly behind my assertation that all immigrants, regardless of which country they choose to go to must be able to speak the language of their newly adopted country for not only survival but to improve their lives which is precisely why they emigrated in the first place. I would request you re-evaluate your previous position and consider the consequences of not being able to communicate to the populous at large.
I await your response/rebuttal based on the reasons outlined above.
Regards,
Bryan Kerwick
bryankerwick@comcast.net
on 12 Nov 2005 at 1:19 pm 9.--H
said …
Bryan:
As I know it, most of the younger generation French from the former colonies or Middle-Eastern descents were born in France and do speak French. They don’t get the same opportunities due to the more homogenous (or read: racist) society over there. If there is one way for them to improve themselves is to start their own (small) businesses — a friend’s friend from Arab descent living in Sweden actually is doing this BUT he is lucky that he could get a bank loan. Just to illustrate, this guy was rejected a gym membership in Sweden and was told that it’s full. He then asked his (white) friend to apply for membership and was immediately approved. He is smart enough to ask his friend to wear a microphone and brought this up in local TV. Scary, eh?
In the US, I think things are different. I’m not disagreeing with you, in fact, I’m always irritated when I see immigrants NOT speaking English at public places, but in reality — I’ve only lived in the state of CA here — in LA or SF Bay Area metro, there are lots of pockets of immigrants where they don’t speak English or can’t speak English. They can “survive” on this because here we have institutions (i.e.: government offices, banks, etc.) that cater to their languages. DMV has 4-5 different languages, no? I meant, if it’s up to me, I think the form should only be in English for applicants under 50 y.o. (I can live with the trouble for older citizens to learn a new language).
One thing that pisses me off the most is when I got asked in Chinese when I go to Chinese restaurants (I don’t really speak Chinese although I look Asian).
While this is not an ideal situation, this is a much better situation than in the Euroland. Of course in an ideal world, I expect all immigrants to fully assimilate and speak English as their primary language. But where we live in just not an ideal world.